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Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.
Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.
Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.
To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.
Dan Ryan: today's guest is an industry Titan with a hands on approach to design. He's a leader with a strong focus on investment and development strategies. He has helped educate the next generation of hospitality professionals as a guest lecturer at Cornell university hotel school. The University of Illinois, the Savannah College of Art and Design, UNLV, and more.
He's the founder of the Radical Innovation Hospitality Awards. He's an investor in River, a financial and project management online software platform. He's the founder and chairman of the Hardy Group. He is the founder of Hardy Ventures for investing in hospitality projects. Ladies and gentlemen, John Hardy.
Welcome, John.
John Hardy: Hey, thanks, Dan. Great to do this.
Dan Ryan: I'm so happy to have you here. Um, and I guess it's like, as you have more experience in our industry, the introduction gets longer and longer.
John Hardy: I guess that's good.
Dan Ryan: I think it's really good. And I guess, and your, uh, and your family tree gets longer and longer as well. So, you know, having interviewed your son and known your other sons, um, I don't know. It's just great to have you here. And so thank you
John Hardy: You're welcome. Happy to do it.
Dan Ryan: Um, I just want to go back. I think the, I think I remember the first time I met you and I want to go back and I want to say maybe it's like 2002, maybe three.
And it was I think at one of the first hospitality design summit shows and it might've been in, it was a mountain
John Hardy: was a veil.
Dan Ryan: It was Vail and I remember I got a whole, I remember you were there when I, I was like, Oh, I'm new here. I don't know anyone. I'm just going to buy a lot of tequila. And I came out with this huge tray of tequila, um, to some table at a bar in like the center of the village.
And I just want to say thank you for. Partaking in that tray of tequila that I brought. It just, it was a great way to help me just kind of get to know everyone. And I think it was a memorable, it was memorable for me, but I definitely remember meeting you and your smile, uh, almost a smile of disbelief when that
John Hardy: That was funny.
Dan Ryan: and did I get
John Hardy: do it another way.
Dan Ryan: did I get our first meeting? So my, my tip for everyone who's, who's like just starting out out there, a tray of tequila shots always
John Hardy: Yeah, I think that's smart. You know, it's kind of hard when you're traveling with it, but good
Dan Ryan: Yeah. Well, well, thank you for like making me feel comfortable and like, and kind of, and just helping, helping me just connect and get to know people. You've always been there. You've always been someone to pick up the phone. And if I had a question or just wasn't sure about something, and I think that, and as I'm sure we'll, as I know in our conversation, I think all of our listeners will just get. That idea will be reinforced by all the things that you've done in your career and how you've positioned, um, your company, your family, to just keep kind of paying it forward to inspire and I don't know, like elevate and impact. All the other ones in our amazing industry. So a heartfelt thank you to
John Hardy: Well, that's uh, very nice of you to say that. I hope that's accurate because it does make me feel good, of course. If we're having a positive effect on anybody. So that's good.
Dan Ryan: Well, I, yeah, as a sample set of one, I can definitely say that I've also, um, well, before we get into all of it, I guess this is defining hospitality. So let's, I first want to ask you before we get into the conversation, how do you define hospitality?
John Hardy: Uh, well, that's a very large question, but how I define it is, uh, it's, it's how you treat. Uh, a guest, whether it's in your home or whether it's in your hotel, you're making them feel comfortable. You're providing for their needs even more than what they need and surprising them with extras. And you're, you're, you're basically giving them a welcome and a, place to spend the night or the week or whatever it is in some way that you're exceeding their expectations and they're comfortable and you're, treating them with respect, like you would like to be treated yourself.
It's not just a number. There's something more to it.
Dan Ryan: And in the sense that I'm furnishing hotels, you're helping develop, or you're developing, you're owning your, um, project managing hotels. You're bringing this real estate asset class to life, correct? Take that idea of having everyone be your guest in, in your vocation. And my vocation is also a delicate balance because It's a cash flowing operation.
It's a financial asset, but I feel that aside from just the real estate component of what we do, I think in what we do also, like there's dollars and cents, but it's also about not just getting the thing opened on time and providing returns to our investors, but making sure that everyone is cared for along that journey.
Would, do you think I, like, how do you, how do you look at that? Because you have your guests are so important and how do you make them feel? But you got to open the doors.
John Hardy: I think there's a couple of different parts to that. Uh, number one is, you know, we're not the one greeting the guests in our business. We're the ones creating the environment for the guests to be greeted in, or, or, you know, do whatever they're doing, whether it's sleeping or going to a meeting or going to a restaurant or a bar.
So from our point of view, everything that we're doing along with our clients and partners and all the consultants, we have, you know, many, many consultants. A typical project, it might be 25 or 28 different groups. Whether it's engineers or designers, but we're always trying to create an environment where a guest can serve their needs, whether it's a meeting, whether it's a guest room, where they're going to be comfortable and enjoy the experience.
So all that time, effort, and money is going into just trying to create the physical experience for someone who will be a guest someday. Then the whole other part of that, which is the actual operation, uh, is, is actually trying to. Build on that to create the experience for the guests. So we're just doing, you know, a portion of it.
It's a very important portion, but if the second part of it doesn't follow through with the philosophy of treating the guest correctly, and then you have that financial component, it gets in the way of a lot of things. Um, you know, there's, there's not, it's not a successful endeavor for the guest, which means it's not going to be successful with their investor or the operator either.
If it doesn't all work together,
Dan Ryan: But I would also say, okay, so there's the guest part. But I think that there's a, there's a certain level, uh, not certain. It's, it's, there's a definite level of hospitality and meeting others where they are when you talk about developing a hotel, because in a hotel, there's so many stakeholders, like you said, there's 25 to 28 consultants, but then you have your investors, you have your brands, you have your manager, the management company, and I think in what you do and what you've built at the And why you've been able to have success from your generation to the next is there's this certain element of making sure that everyone, all of those stakeholders are heard, aligned, and then able to execute, and then like troubleshoot along the way.
To get the, these hotels open. Is that a correct
John Hardy: it is in a way, I think the way we run our business philosophically, it's almost like a hospitality experience in itself. There's many complications and many challenges along the way, but the way we try to treat our clients and our consultants and anybody that all of our colleagues, whether they're contractors or vendors, whatever.
We should be treating them with the respect that they deserve for all the effort they're going through, but also at the same time, supporting them in what they're trying to accomplish, because. We don't do any of this by ourselves. There's thousands of people involved, but we need to be able to be the leader and create the environment in a business sense that will help people be successful at what they're doing.
Because if they're successful and we can guide them to do that, then we're going to be successful. Our clients and their investors are going to be successful. So it's all related to one degree or another. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but that's how I look at it.
Dan Ryan: No, it does because it's not, I guess where I'm, I'm in, inarticulately trying to get to is whether it's a new hotel or renovation, it's an asset. There's returns, they're shareholders, it needs to open. Um, and in that there's a lot of accountability and a lot of drive forward. And I find that at least in the hospitality projects that I work on, okay.
We're all mindful of that. end goal, but I feel like there's something different about building a hotel than let's say building some other industrial space or an office building or a multi family with the, because it's a, it's kind of like a, a small fraternity or sorority of, of players in what we do.
Like there's a niche in this hospitality world, but what do you think separates Our hotel world of creating these hotel, these buildings versus other asset classes within real estate.
John Hardy: I think one of the reasons that attracted me to the industry in the first place is the complexity of the design process and the fact that there were so many opportunities to be creative, which is a big driver of my own. So when you think about all the people we work with, everybody in the hospitality industry, for the most part, wants to be in the hospitality industry.
They all enjoy it. Everybody's very friendly. It's in because of the complications, it takes a lot of people to cooperate together. You know, to one degree or another to accomplish a physical product. And everybody's trying, most people I'd say, are trying to do the best they can at achieving whatever their role is.
So they work very hard and they have lots of opinions. They have lots of, uh, different things they do to try to accomplish their particular, uh, process or their product and their niche. But at the end of the day, we're creating a building or a resort or whatever it is. That's going to be operating 24, 7, 365 days a year.
That when it opens has to all be finished at one time. You know, whether it's rooms, kitchens, laundries, ballrooms, restaurants, swimming pools, site work, that's one of the biggest differentiators of this particular real estate type. If you build an office building, you do the, you do the core, you do the shell, and you're, you're pretty much done.
And then they, they do, uh, the, the. They'll at least fit out as they go along. They don't finish the whole building at one time, or if you're, you know, a hospital would be something that will be similar, but they don't have the consumer focus like we do in the, uh, in the hospital industry. So hospitality to me is the most difficult product to be successful in from a development, design, and construction point of view.
It's just got so many different aspects to it that have to be done right. And that's very hard to do, if not impossible. And at the end of the day, you're going to be judged on what that person's experience is when they, when they're there.
Dan Ryan: Hmm. I also wonder, I agree. And you have a much broader and a longer view on why hospitality is the most difficult of asset classes to develop. Um, but is it the challenge that drew you to it or are we just gluttons for punishment? It
John Hardy: one would do this if they didn't want to do it. Cause it's way too hard. It's way too complicated. It's way too risky. I mean, it would be much easier doing office warehouses where you, you know, just throw up some tilt wall panels and pour some concrete and put a few signs up and you're done, you know, it's simple.
This is like, you have to be a glutton for punishment to want to go through this all the time. But I think everybody loves that challenge. And it's, it's really an interesting business because you're, you're dealing with different locations, different, uh, communities, different cultures. You know, different people, every project has a whole different new group of people.
You're reinventing the wheel every time for the most part, you know, different jurisdictions, different climates. It's really fascinating when you really stop and think about it, all the different things you're involved in. You know, we go to cities where after a while we were like a local in that city.
And I know more people in that city than I do in Atlanta a lot of times. So it's fun if you like that kind of exposure to all the different parts of the business in the world. Yeah, we don't do as much internationally as some people do, but you know, you go to another country and you're going to figure out their culture and what's going to work there and how they're going to build it, who's going to, what they like, what they don't like, how you get through all that, that is a really.
Challenging process. And we do that all the time. It's just normal for us. And when we deal with people that, you know, they've been living in one city their whole life, and we come in and they're like, how are you going to do this? You've never been here before. Like, I mean, I don't know. We just do this all the time.
We know how to do that. Everybody involved with this is pretty much the same way. It's kind of crazy when you think about it.
Dan Ryan: is. And I think ultimately at the, at the end of the day, I think what's Better about what I prefer about hospitality. I haven't really done many tilt up offices, but actually maybe any or warehouses,
John Hardy: anything.
Dan Ryan: I know, or maybe I did when I was first out of college. I think I worked on one out in somewhere near San Jose, but when you open a hotel, you can actually go and have a drink with the whole, those 25 to 28 and other stakeholders and have a drink at the bar.
Right. And there's like a, there's a celebratory moment or moments at the end.
John Hardy: Yeah. It's much better to do that than, uh, go, you know, look at the concrete floor and go, Oh, that's going to be great when we get the, the forklifts in here, you know. Not quite the same.
Dan Ryan: So when did you know that hospitality was the lane for you? Let's say h How old were you? Where were you? Um, how did you either fall in love with it or get Shanghai into it?
John Hardy: Well, as some of it was like a lot of things is just accidental. So when I graduated from Illinois in architecture, I went to New York city and I had a list of 22 firms and one of my professors had given me to go see, which was, you know, I. M. Pei, Philip Johnson, all the big names. And like the last person on the list was a gentleman named William B.
Tabler. And he was the only one that offered me a job out of the 22. I didn't realize the city was in a depression and he did hotels and he was a very famous hotel architect. He and. Morris Lapidus were competitors. And so he was one of the first architects to go internationally with the hotel companies that time, you know, Pan Am owned Intercon, TWA owned, uh, Hilton, you know, American owned Americana.
So it was the first projection of American brands internationally after World War II were the airlines right after that were the hotel companies. And then right after that were the architects and engineers. So he was doing these projects all over the world, which I got to work on, not, not knowing anything.
It was fascinating to see how we designed the hotel in Saudi Arabia or in London or in Toronto or the Bahamas or LA. You know, it was a really great learning experience, you know, for a young architect on both the design and the technical side. Plus he was a really good professional person, a very nice person, very Successful.
So I just learned a ton from him. And then, uh, I ended up moving to Houston for the oil, the oil boom down there. And, um, there was a demand for people that knew something about hotels and I I'd had four or five years of experience. I mean, I didn't know that much, but I knew more than the local people. So I just, it was just a leg up on a, on a, on a career.
And it was fun. I mean, the hotel industry,
Dan Ryan: year was that? What year was that? 78. And then, so when I think of. I know Lapidus and, and ta and ta. Tabler
John Hardy: Tabler, William B. Tabler.
Dan Ryan: Tabler. So I've heard, I've heard of them before. I never had the pleasure of meeting them. But when I think about, uh, where did Portman also, you being in Atlanta, like when did Portman come into that to really take what Lapidus and Tabler had done and. Kind of put his
John Hardy: think it was in the 70s. I have to look back, but I think I was in college when he, he did the Hyatt here in Atlanta. And that was very motivating for me as an, as an architect because it was the first hotel, well, there's a big debate, there's a big debate between Trammell Crowe and And Portman, who did the first Atrium Hotel, but Atrium goes back, you know, probably a thousand years, who knows, but he was the first one to do it in a, in a contemporary hotel.
He did the architecture. The interiors and he was the owner that was unique. So that broke the mold for, and it also made Hyatt because at that time, Hyatt was like a select serve hotel company. So it put them on the map. So there's a huge risk that they took, but very successful. So I saw that, I thought, man, that's what I want to do.
So my whole direction in my career from that point on was to become a, uh, architect developer. I'm really, he was an architect developer. I would say I'm a developer architect. So it's a little different slant. Um, because I don't, I don't have that design talent that he had, but I have, I have the eye for it, but I'm a better practical developer than probably he was.
Dan Ryan: Okay. And then at what point did you take your entrepreneurial step and then start the Hardy Group?
John Hardy: Well, it was in, uh, 91 and a half, 92.
Dan Ryan: Oh, so in another
John Hardy: Yeah, I'm a great at recessions,
Dan Ryan: Wow. Wow. That's funny. I started my first company, what was it? August 28th, 2001. So like two weeks before, um, September 11th. Wow. Okay. So was it out of. You're following a dream or was it out of necessity that you started the Hardy
John Hardy: both. So I had been with, I'd left, I became the youngest partner ever at this big firm in Houston because I, I was, uh, good at what I did and I worked very hard. And, uh, I knew that the good times were going to come to an end there. Which no one else really understood. I'd gone through it in New York and I had that New York mentality of, you know, the killer instincts.
So I, I worked very hard to accomplish what I wanted to. And I learned from listening to Portman and other people that if you're going to get to go into development, you really need to learn architecture first. So I spent 13 years in architecture. I really learned that business and how it worked. And I was a partner in a big firm.
Then I got an offer to go to the original interstate. When they had, I think, three hotels and they were growing and, uh, they didn't have anybody who understood how to improve their product because they were doing Marriott, the old Marriott with the top that stuck out and they were. They were not good, but they were trying really hard and they were good operators and good owners.
So I came in to elevate the quality level of the physical product, which was a great opportunity for me. So I had really control over all the design, you know, the construction. Uh, as long as I met all the zoning, building code requirements, got all the brand approvals, got our operators approvals. I could do pretty much anything I wanted.
It was a, it was wonderful. So I learned the development business there for eight years and we did 14 hotels, full service Marriott's all across the country, many. And at one point we started to get more hotels and we knew what to do with in terms of renovations. Nobody wanted to do them. And I said, look, I'll do the renovations.
I'd done one or two before in my career. I took over all the renovations, which grew very rapidly because we ended up with by the time I left 55 hotels. And so it was a really fast growth, but then again, in the late 80s, nearly 90s, the market started to tank again. And, you know, I was, I could see that coming.
And then, so at some point they decided to eliminate my position because I was well paid. I was still, I was a partner in every deal that we did, but a very small partner. So they decided they couldn't afford me anymore. And so they eliminated my position. And I was out of a job in the middle of a recession in Pittsburgh.
And so I was really depressed for like two days. Then I woke up one day and thought, wow, this is great. I can do my own thing now. And I don't know what it is, but I had this theory that there was a need for third party technical services at that time, which was at that time only within the Marriott, Hilton, or Hyatt.
They did that all in house or a company like Interstate was one of the larger franchisees. In fact, one time we had 50 percent of all Marriott rooms, which is kind of shocking when you think
Dan Ryan: Wow.
John Hardy: Yeah, 50%. So we were like a clone of Marriott. Anyway, so, but I always got phone calls from clients or partners or Whoever asking me for advice on various things.
And I had a great relationship with everybody. So I thought there must be a need for this, or why would people be calling me all the time? So I decided to start this business. I had no idea it was going to work and it wasn't like that, like a genius move. There were no jobs because it was so bad. There were no jobs.
So I thought I've always wanted to do this. This is like no time like the present. I got a little bit of money. I'm going to, I'm going to give it a whirl. And I had no idea what I was doing. I just, I didn't even call really that many people, but they found out I left. They started calling me. So I really had,
Dan Ryan: And did you have, did you have kids
John Hardy: I had three kids and a mortgage and a wife, and we just decided, you know, let's roll the dice, you know,
Dan Ryan: Burn the ships and attack the shore.
John Hardy: it's kind of like, you know, when there's no plan B, plan A has a much better chance of success.
Dan Ryan: Yeah. I always find that I, some of my clearest thinking is in that depressed, like, oh my God, what am I doing next? But I also, and I don't know what's happening, but I call it the crucible, right? Where it's like, uh, it's almost like the planet. There is no plan B, it's plan A, and you have, like, Everything becomes abundantly clear.
Um, when plan a B it's amazing when plan a becomes clear, uh, because like, there's a lot of shit going on at that moment when plan a becomes really, really clear. And then you just got to make it
John Hardy: A is actually fairly simple. It's got, in the beginning, it went on a two week cycle, then it became 30 days, then it became six months, then it became one year, then it became two years, then it became five years. After 32 years, I only have plan A. There is no reason to have more than one plan. One is hard enough.
So forget plan B, just implement plan A.
Dan Ryan: So, and it's been 32 years since Hardy group was founded, correct? Doing third party project management, technical services, and then you've created all of these other platforms around it. Um, when did radical innovation Start 2020. Oh, 2006. Okay. So
John Hardy: it was the first HD, um, HD design. in Miami Beach. And, you know, I was, I had a lot of friends at HD and they wanted me to do a panel and I really had grown to not like panels, uh, for a variety of reasons. And I said, I don't want to do a panel with, just give me an hour and I'll do something.
I don't know what it is. I'll do something. It was again, like no plan, but I had an idea. So I, I'd been fortunate enough to work with a lot of really interesting people. Like I did some work with Schrader that, uh, was short I did a lot with Barry Sternlich and I really liked Barry. Uh, he was, he was
Dan Ryan: a dream. He's a dream guest of mine on here. Like I, he's like, he's
John Hardy: Well, he's a trip. I mean, we had a, we had a great relationship. We, you know, he didn't know anything about hotels when he started. And so I was like his development guy. There were like four or five of us that did all this stuff together. It was crazy. But, uh, the thing that was great about what I saw in Schrager and when I saw in Barry, the most creative people in the hotel industry were not from the hotel industry, and it's still, it's still that way to this day, because when you're in the industry and you've grown up in it, you're in operations and this is the, this is the opposite of radical innovation.
This is one of the things that. Inspired radical innovation was everything that we run into in the industry is pretty much mostly, no, no, you can't do this. No, that's cost too much. No, the banks won't finance it. Ops doesn't like it, you know, this or that, you know, and it's, you know, it's frustrating if you're, if you're a creative person.
So, uh, I, I watched Barry do all this crazy stuff and a lot of stuff he just did on his intuition. I mean, I don't know that he's still, he still does that. I'm sure with like one hotels and he does a lot based on his own intuition. He's an unusual person and he's both right brain and left brain, but I watched him do that.
I thought, you know, this is, there's something here. You've got to get outside the industry to get anything creative because. You know, if you remember back, and probably don't, but a lot of the hotels were very repetitive, you know, Marriott had the same restaurant in Chicago, they had in Houston, they did everything the same.
And then, you know, Bill Kempton came out with, started doing Kempton with the restaurant, driving the hotel.
Dan Ryan: For the record, my dad would only stay at Marriott's because they had the same restaurant
John Hardy: it was consistent.
Dan Ryan: the same. And I'm like, and I'm like, Oh,
John Hardy: It met your expectations. It drove me crazy as an architect.
Dan Ryan: it Drove me crazy. too, yeah. But
John Hardy: Intercontinentals we did in different countries, you responded to the culture. It wasn't cookie cutter. So, you know, when I was at Interstate, I fought that battle all the time with Marriott.
Well, why do we have to do it that way? That's the way we do it at Marriott. Well, that's dumb. We don't have to do it that way. So I think I probably did 70 design presentations with Bill Marriott. I never once did what they told me to do, and I got all but one approved. So I never let somebody second guess what I thought was the right thing to do.
And I think that's the way a lot of people should do things. But if you're going to do it that way, you better be right. So anyway, uh, when Kempton and Schrager and Barry started, it was Kempton and Schrager first, they didn't follow that formula. You know, Schrager came out of the nightclub business, so basically it was a nightclub.
In fact, I asked them, why'd you go into Hotels? They said, we got too old to stay up all night.
Dan Ryan: Yeah,
John Hardy: So Hotels was the next best thing. And then Barry just was, he, you know, he was just a design brain. He still is. He loves design. So that's what I liked about him. So we were doing, experimenting. Well, well,
Dan Ryan: wait, wait, and from your, keeping with the Barry and the Schrager, idea. How did Bill Kempton fit into that? Looking at, looking at things differently from, from coming as a restaurant person and going into
John Hardy: so. I don't know exactly, but he actually did it first. Then it was Schrager, then Berry, and Berry loved what Schrager did. So what they did was they basically made it very creative and got away from this repetition all the time. And people at that time, the consumer was tired of that, not all the consumers, but a lot.
So basically they created the boutique movement in the late 80s, early 90s. That changed everything. All of a sudden now, you could do it, eventually, when the internet came out, really got strong, all of a sudden you could do an independent boutique in Manhattan. With no brand. Yeah.
Dan Ryan: And that's how I got my start doing furniture for, for Kempton. I mean, it was, I was living in San Francisco and I don't think, and also W had just started, but I think if it was just the regular, Scaled, played out furniture situation. I don't think I ever would have gotten a start. And I think it was really, um, the way that these people looked at things differently that allowed other smaller people with no experience or a very different experience to kind of get their toe in the water.
So I owe, I owe them a lot, but, but basically back to the being told, no, sorry to cut you off there.
John Hardy: no, but so here's, here's, there's a lot of great examples. So I watched Barry and I love working with Barry. We did, we did a ton of things together and it was really fun cause we weren't doing the same thing as, as a architect and a development mind of person, I thought it was great to be not doing the same thing all the time and experimenting and taking the risks, and there was a lot of risks to it.
I think we did the first. What eventually became W in Seattle, where we had, we did, we had no money for the budget. We painted all the walls white. We did industrial fixtures in the bathroom. We were running cable under the carpet to get to the other side of the room. It was all black and white, black and white photography.
We did it Starbucks in the lobby with like magazines or like a library. It was very W. It was really kind of W very, very early on. And it was great. It was so much fun. We had a red fainting couch in the room. And it's just stuff that you. You always wanted to do, but no one would let you do. Well, Barry was like, yeah, let's do that.
So then I'll tell you a great example of what, what happens. We, I did a project here with him in Atlanta, uh, in midtown and we did, uh, all white linen. And I, and I kind of had a, uh, understanding with Barry that. Yeah, I would do anything we decide to do, but if I didn't think it was a good idea, I would, I would say, I don't think it's a good idea, let's not do it.
And if you want to do it, I'll help you, but don't blame me if it doesn't work. You know, so I, that was one of those things. The first time anybody had done all white linen, I said, Barry. You know, this is going to be a problem. Cause I have to dry clean it every week. It's going to be a nightmare. And he goes, I don't give a blank, let's do it.
Okay. You know, so turns out because it was so much volume, all the fabric manufacturers figured out how to do white fabric that didn't have to be dry clean. So he forced the innovation just because he wanted to. And everybody followed, like the Heavenly Bed, there's another great example. You know, when Weston was such a boring chain and he bought it, and fortunately he had control of enough of the assets that he could make them do it because they all complained a lot of them.
Anyway, that's how a lot of innovation happens by somebody that isn't in the typical mindset of the industry. If you grow up and you can only do things a certain way, you're not going to ever innovate. So the reason Radical got started was my frustration with a lack of creativity. And this was all like right after, uh, 9 11 and sort of the boutique movement was still going strong, but I thought, who else is out there?
What other Barry's are out there or Schragers or Kipton's? They must be there somewhere. Why don't we create a competition where they can bring their ideas forward and we'll support them and we'll give them a forum. That'll be in HD magazine. It'll be in other magazines, uh, being, you know, sleeper, things like that.
And.
Dan Ryan: It's like Shark Tank
before
John Hardy: yeah, but it was, it was like Shark Tank, but it was different because it was a little more benevolent. And I got all my, my friends to be on the panel, like Mike Mazigian, Simon Turner, Jennifer, you know, investor types, Jim Woods was the W at the time. So we had this really, really stellar panel of experienced developer investor types to be the judges.
And, uh, you know, we went on, we had Wing Chow for a while as a judge. He was great. We had great judges. So basically we invited anybody in the world to submit. They only had to have meet two requirements, have a guest room and have a way to check in. And we got, all of a sudden we got submissions from Paris and other places, we were not expecting that at all.
The first winner was Jacques Cousteau's grandson with a hotel called the Zyde Underwater Hotel. And then there was a, uh, a group of interior designers from Chicago called We2 that took a motel and made it hip. Which, you know, was very common later, right? So what happened, what's happened with Radical is it's all about yes, you know, it, we're not saying you can't do anything.
We got space hotels and we used to laugh, I'm going to be a space hotel. Well, you know, now there actually are space hotels. So what we learned is there are all these people out there with these great ideas and the goal was to take these ideas and bring them to the market so that the industry would have a new, a new avenue, a new lane that never existed before where.
The person with the original idea would benefit from it, from a career point of view and a business point of view, the designers would benefit, the brands, the operators, the developers, everybody would have a new market. That was the whole purpose of it
Dan Ryan: To me, to me, it's almost, it's not almost, it is an open source think
John Hardy: It is. Yeah,
Dan Ryan: and I know, I also hear a lot of, most designers or architects or creative thinkers that you would interact with, they, and I agree with them that most great designs. And ideas come from constraints, right? Going back to that crucible where you are.
But I think what I really appreciate about radical innovation, now that you're talking about this is, okay, I respect that and I understand that. And I agree, but also for so many of the projects that you've just mentioned and the other ones that I've seen over the years that you, that are really open source sharing, there's no constraints, it's like just go.
And I feel like in, in the world of design, we spend so much time working within constraints. It's actually really freeing and liberating to be like, there are no constraints go, or the one constraint is, I think it's actually changed, but you were saying it means a check in and a, and a guest room, but I feel like.
That's there's yeah. So in effect, there's zero constraints. And what, what do you think the most, um, member or like, I don't know, the most memorable or, or one, one, one, uh, project that came out of, or a design that came out of Radical Innovation that you're.
John Hardy: Well, I mean, there's been many, you know, the 18 years, I mean, there's hundreds of projects. And well, I'll just say one thing, the most amazing part of it are the people we meet from all over the world, you know, from China, from Saudi Arabia, from Iran, from Russia, politically incorrect countries that have great people, right?
That's not normal, but we've met from South America and all over the US. It's just fantastic. The people and their enthusiasm for it. So one of my favorites was, uh, well, Poseidon was great because they were having a hotel, uh, you know, that the guest room was above the surface and below, so you didn't have to, you know, pressurize it.
And they were taking part of the money and using it to, to restore the reefs. So it was a sustainable hotel concept and it was going to be done in Fiji. And think about all the issues with reefs right now. If there was a hospitality brand, talk about a sustainable brand that people could have an experiential design and contribute it to restoring the reefs.
It's pretty amazing concept, right? And then the Koi hotel was a hotel in Paris on a bridge. It's a 600 year old concept, but the idea was the bridge would have a hotel, but the hotel was below the walking surface. So you would connect two parts of the city that needed, um, stimulation from an economic point of view.
One side was the public side. One was a service side and the roof or the top of the hotel was a park. You created a hotel over the river Seine that didn't ever exist before. All of a sudden you, you motivated two parts of the city that needed it economically. Fantastic idea. We actually worked on it with the Corps and some engineers.
And we got to a point where the city was going to do it. And then we got involved with politics and that was kind of the end of it. That's one.
Dan Ryan: I think, I think one of the things going back to the idea of no, I think, you know, in a way kind of looking up to you over all the years, I think it's part of the, one of the reasons why I created this podcast as well. I would have these. Great ideas that really have nothing to do with me that I want to do a panel that you don't want to do panels, but I wanted to do panels and like have these discussions.
But then a lot of people, whether they're competitors or, or power structure that are there, just like you get this no, and I'm like, there's so much learning and so many great, great ideas and experiences that I could talk to people like you and 160 other people I've talked to since doing this or starting this where it's just. Getting all those ideas and inspiration and impactful memories out of their heads and into other people's ears an open source think tank is just, it's been, I don't know, it's my favorite thing to do every week and to be able to have this. So to me, it's about impacting others and, and maybe kind of, well, I say shortening their journeys, right?
It's almost like, well, I don't want to fill in the blanks for you, but if I were to say, kind of going with pulling on that thread there, And you look at your regular day job. I say what I do is inconsequential, um, as far as furnishing hotels. Um, but why I do what I do is really what lights me up. So, which is shortening other people's journey.
So if I, if I were to ask you about radical innovation in particular, why is it so important to you that you've not only created this, But it continues to grow and, and, and expand.
John Hardy: That's a great question. I'm not sure I totally know the answer. I wish I did. I would say there's some elements to it. Number one, I never had any idea it was going to go two years, let alone 18. Actually, it took almost a year to get it off the ground. So I look at now, you know, the scale of it, how many people it's touched, you know, how, how many people are involved.
You know, there's, it's just, it's just grown so much. And you think about, you know, 18 plus years of doing something, That makes no money, right? It, and it's, and it's not even about us. And I mean, I'm sure that people recognize we, I don't think people probably really grasp how much we put into this, but it goes all year round.
We get like a month off and that's it. And it starts up again. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of money. And if I looked at it on a cost benefit relationship, I'm sure it makes absolutely no sense. But, you know, from a, a point of view of. Helping other people and, uh, meeting new people that stimulate us.
And it's really, it's really a incubator for new ideas. And a lot of these things have come to market and seeing some student that had an idea who was from Amsterdam and now he's producing Cabanana that we're going to use in the US, the whole continuum of that would not have happened without Radical.
And then we had this, we had this great relationship with these universities, UNLV, NYU, Illinois, where the students can get a free master of architecture, a free master of hospitality scholarship for two years. They don't even have to win, but the universities have recognized. That this is a source of talent.
And some of these students have gone on to create their own businesses. So I look at all that and I think, you know, that's very rewarding because it's not about us. It's not about me. I'm just a catalyst for it. And when I look at all the different things you do in your career, it's, it's great to have the professional accomplishments to make money and.
We're very fortunate. We do great projects all over the place with great clients and great teams. I mean, it's ridiculously good, but you know, it's also really rewarding to help other people try to do the same thing that I did or that we're doing here. You know, that, that's pretty cool. And when it's when you can do all this and keep it going and now other people are involved, keeping it going.
With me or in spite of me or whatever it is, you know, that's really a nice thing. It's, it's really good for the industry. It's really good for the people involved and it's wide open. Like you said, there's no limits and that that's rare. I can't think of anything else like that in the industry.
Dan Ryan: And I also think, well, not to put me on an equivalent, uh, or put this podcast on an equivalent trajectory of radical innovation, but as I, as I'm hearing you say that, you were really uncertain what to expect. The future would be and where it would be after even two years of doing this. Um, it's much in the same way.
I think about, I love doing this so much, this, these conversations, and I feel like it's going to turn into something else. I just don't know what I'm just going. I'm just following what I'm passionate about. It's not. And that's okay. Actually, that's okay. And I feel as if it's this doing this podcast has opened so many other doors.
And I just been, I was, I was talking to you before we recorded, I started this newsletter a couple of weeks ago where I don't know what it's going to be. It's just like a quick, I call it the Friday five, um, where it's just a quick summation of like, what's going on, like what the latest podcast is a good nugget of learning from the past and just upcoming events and other inspiration and things that have shortened my journey.
And I don't know, I don't even know why I started it. I just feel like I don't want to lose the learnings that come out of these amazing conversations and these other, your life experience that I know someone is going to be listening to and you're going to make them think a little bit differently.
About what they're doing. And all I got to say, like, from my experience, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, if it feels right, just do it. I mean, it's like, it really just opens so many doors and there doesn't actually have to be an intended outcome. But as I see with what you're talking about with radical innovation and, and kind of, and what I've seen over the years, it does inspire, it does impact.
And to me, that's what gets me out of bed every day.
John Hardy: Yeah, well, I think what you're doing is great. And the reason you're doing it is because you want to, and you think it has value to you and you don't have to do it. That's what I think the best part about it, these kinds of things is that, you know, it really is, the world literally is a stage and you can decide, do you want to sit in the audience?
Do you want to, do you want to run the lights or do you want to get out on stage? Do you want to take the risk that you're going to bomb out? You know, or are you going to, are you, are you okay with that? You've got to be willing to bomb out and fail to go through all the aggravation and work, cause it's hard work.
And I remember when we did eight years with, we did two years at Design Expo. Then we did six at HD Expo and it wasn't the right location for us. We decided. We're going to move Radical. We're going to leave that, that group. We're going to go to New York. I'm going to think, where else could you do a bit in New York?
Right. Go to New York. It's a big Apple. Yeah. I love New York. Let's go to New York. And if we fall flat on our face, so be it. At least we tried, you know, that was 10 years ago. So, I mean,
Dan Ryan: If you can make it there, you can
John Hardy: that was my thought. So all these things like what you're doing, the, the broadcast or your newsletter, what we did with Radical, what we're doing with the business here, whether it's our technology or Radical or the core business, Or, you know, we have an investment group called Hardy Ventures.
We're developing really cool hotels that are not normal. They're not like anything else. We could have done 10 select surf hotels in the amount of time we're doing this. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not that interesting to me. Uh,
Dan Ryan: well, wait, describe the, like an unusual hotel that you're doing with your, with your venture group.
John Hardy: well, we have, uh, this is a, uh, current, it's a lifestyle boutique hotel near Atlanta in an area you wouldn't expect to find it. Which is the, which I think the good part about it, cause it's It's the, it's the contrast to everything else. All your standard hotel brands are there. It's in a growing market, but it's very experiential and nature oriented.
And then we're, we're working right now on a resort up in the mountains of North Carolina. It's again, very experiential, very beautiful nature. And our big thrust on our investment platform right now, it's, it's primarily experiential and the more we can tie it into nature, the better, because, you know, it's, it's what people want right now.
It's the consumer trend. And if you look at, you know, the things you, the change in the industry, besides like an individual, like a Barry or a Schrag or a Kempton, I mean, they change it intuitively because they wanted to do something differently and people do things. You know, they, they say it's economical and it is to a lot of it's like, they just want to do it.
I mean, that's, that's what it comes down to and they take the risk to do it. And, you know, if they're successful, you hear about them. If they're not successful, you don't hear about them. But 9 11 really changed things, you know, big dislocation like that, where people didn't want to get on a plane. Guess what?
Savannah took off, Charleston took off. You know, New York City is a drive thru market in a way. So all these cities that were drive thru became very popular all of a sudden. And then people wanted more of a comfortable boutique y, you know, uh, experience. They didn't want to go to the Marriott Marquis in, you know, Times Square necessarily.
And then, you know, now you had 2008 where people became much more kind of family oriented, kind of a closed, more of a closed knit kind of thing. And now after COVID, it's very much outdoors and nature. You know, so all these other things affect the industry too. So as long as you're aware of that and can take advantage of it, if you want to, and you believe in that, it creates opportunities for you, but it's risky.
You know, it's a lot of work.
Dan Ryan: Well, speaking of risky and the, then the platform, and I guess for lack of a better word in this, I don't know, the area of hospitality, would you consider, um, outdoor leisure?
John Hardy: We've looked at that and I think that that's great. So you mean like a glamping kind of thing?
Dan Ryan: Well, no, it could be, but it's really just. If I'm hearing you say nature, uh, it could be a regular brick and mortar hotel, but if it's connected to nature, there's a lot of other programming with nature, be it, uh, as simple as a nature trail to snowboard, uh, snowmobile, uh, You're not in Atlanta, but like, uh, skiing, other connections to outdoors.
Um, I would consider that outdoor leisure. And my question is, it seems to be a very hot and growing moment. Um, and I think for all the reasons that you've said, but when you say it's on, it's unusual and an investment platform does, and it's written and I hear risk, is there a different, like, who are the investors that you're looking for there?
And then What kind of risk return are they looking, would they look for in these more unusual hotels? And
John Hardy: for higher returns cause it's more risk. But here's a great example. Hilton is, you know, acquiring or aligning with AutoCamp. That's a great example. So all these big brands know that the younger age group, like was 18 to 35, are brand agnostic. They're not looking to go stay at a mirror at every place they go.
They're going to be at an Airbnb. Or AutoCamp or something like that. That's a little scary for a big brand with that larger group of people coming up that are not brand loyal. So they're going to, Marriott's the same way. They're all going to start offering these different types of experiential.
Opportunities for people to stay. You see that in a lot of places now. It's a whole, it's a major trend and that's just what we're doing too. We believe in that.
Dan Ryan: so with the platform, what do you think, how does your investment platform for this segment differentiate itself from others?
John Hardy: Um, I think with other people doing similar things, I'm not sure we really are differentiated, we're differentiated from the standard routine hotel that's done in suburbia or an urban market. These have to have some capacity to be, uh, atypical and provide more of an experience. There's gotta be something with it that gives it a unique, natural.
Uh, component. So it's a little bit harder. It's harder to find those opportunities just because they're more unique.
Dan Ryan: And for this platform that you've created, who or what is an ideal investor?
John Hardy: It's people that see that same thing we see and, and want it and believe that the returns are there and want to be part of it and enjoy that and believe that that's a good investment. And there are people like that.
Dan Ryan: People, not necessarily institutions.
John Hardy: They're writing, well you look at Hilton, that's pretty institutional. You know, they're getting involved with, AutoCamp
wasn't, but AutoCamp was non
Dan Ryan: for your platform.
John Hardy: you're gonna, I think the institutions, the herd always gravitates to where the opportunity is, right? So there's always people early on that are doing things that aren't The norm, and then eventually the institution catches up with them at some point because there's growth and money there.
Dan Ryan: Do you think River, your financial and project management platform, and your Hardy Ventures investment platform. Do you think that those would have happened had it not been for radical innovation?
John Hardy: Yes, but they, they're, they're all, they have something in common is they all, they all are derived from the Hardy group experience. So to me, like it's all, to me, it's all intellectual property of one form or another, even though it's translated into a physical product at some point, but I look at the Hardy group, like a font, a fountain of intellectual property.
All the experiences we have, all the people we deal with, radical innovation is a great source of future knowledge. It's really a predictor of future trends. If you watch it and you look at what's happened, you can see trends five years before they happen. Sometimes it's too soon to really get your mind around what it is, but all these things come out of our, our business experience, and it's all based on intellectual property.
Dan Ryan: I would even go a little, a step further, just, you know, knowing you Brent and Chris, um, and thinking about why you started radical innovation and why you're iterating into the investment platform. Um, and also into the, the, the software platform. It's this idea, uh, continue, like, I dunno, we've said the word innovate a hundred times, but it's like, it's just never getting tired or never, never wanting to cease pushing the envelope and to try and look at things a little differently to, to start something new, which actually brings me back to radical innovation.
And I'm also honored to be the MC this year, which is
John Hardy: Yeah. Thank you for doing that. It's, you'll do great.
Dan Ryan: I, well, I certainly hope so. But I'm just so honored to be. Connected to it in a way, but when you look at where radical innovation is now or where it's come from and where it is now and going with that ethos of continual improvement and, and challenging the norms, basically telling the people who say, no, I don't believe you.
Um, what's, how do you think radical innovation is going to Or what excites you about how radical innovation will approach the future or impact the future of hospitality?
John Hardy: it already has, and I think it's, it predicts the future of hospitality because the people that are the innovators and the creators, they're the ones that are taking the risk and making the effort to put their ideas out. It's like Barry did with what he did or Schrager did, you know, on a larger scale.
Yeah. Barry's got one hotels now. Nobody else really has anything like that. So, you know, it takes a certain personality to want, to want to start a podcast and put themselves out there and try to convince people to come on for an hour and talk about whatever subject is interesting to them. So, I mean, that's, that's what drives everything.
It's not somebody that's not interested in doing that or isn't willing to put the time and effort in. Aren't willing to take the risk of failing. That's what's needed in any industry. So Radical is a source for not just those people, but the ideas that they bring forward, that if you really look at them, you can see how in a few years or five years, whatever it is, that's going to be a real, it's going to be a reality.
It's just a matter of time. That's what's great about it. It brings that to the surface that you wouldn't know otherwise. You wouldn't see it. It might not happen if it weren't for them. It might not happen if it weren't for Radical.
Dan Ryan: So I, going back to Barry, I, I remember working for Steve Higgins many, many moons ago when, when the W brand was starting to be birthed. And I just remember, Someone dropping like a shirt fabric off on my desk saying, we want to turn this into a bedspread. It's so funny. You said that earlier. I'm like, Oh my God, how the fuck am I going to do this?
Like, I don't know. It really did change how supply or how supply chain looked at linens. I get changed because there was more yardage. It was a whole new ball game. And I also think at that moment with W. It was very approachable to the masses. It didn't matter where you were socioeconomically when the W opened in Atlanta or San Francisco or LA or New York, it was a thing or Dallas or San Diego.
It was a thing. People went there. It didn't matter who you were. You could just go and have a really good time on a Friday or Saturday night. It was very exciting. And I look at that right brain left brain of Barry Sternlich and what he's created with One Hotels and it's over the top, crazy, amazing, incredible design. And also sustainability plays a big role in it, but I don't find it as a, it's exciting, but I don't find it as approachable for everyone else, right? It's, it's kind of in that, it's in a luxury space. And I think what's exciting about what you're talking about with outdoor leisure or what are the projects that you're working on, Um, I think you said the Carolina's in Atlanta. Um, there's an operative and I don't know if anyone's figured this out, but I think that maybe that's the place where that W idea can happen again, where it's approachable and really fun and an event for everyone. Like W was back in the late nineties, early two thousands. And I feel like we need that.
Level of excitement again, in our industry with respect to a brand that's approachable by a lot. And I don't think we've, I don't think, I don't think like, well, who's that guy that, I don't think William Tell, like the shooting the arrow off the kid's head. I don't think we've really figured out what that arrow through the Apple is just yet, but I feel like everything is iterating towards there.
And I actually, based on now that I'm talking out loud and thinking out loud and connecting the dots at Radical Innovation last year, there were some really cool. are part of that whole process to iterate to what that really approachable, exciting moment is in hospitality
John Hardy: Yeah. Well, the contestants in Radical are telling you where they see the opportunity. I mean, that's what they're doing. They're seeing some opportunity or need or they have an idea and they're bringing that forward. You know, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. But you got to respect them for going to all the trouble and effort to do it.
Dan Ryan: okay. So looking at your, the plat, uh, the platforms you created, radical innovation, As you look to the future, aside from those, what's exciting you most about what you see out there?
John Hardy: I think what's, what's great is now we're in a difficult environment. You know, because of the interest rates, but the industry is still doing pretty well and there are always opportunities to act sometimes in a way when it's more difficult, it's better because it, it forces everyone to do smarter, smarter deals and do them better.
So I think actually the quality level goes up in a difficult environment. And I think it's, you can figure out how to take advantage of that, find the opportunities. As you come out of it, you'll do even better. And that's, that's what we always try to do. We, you know, we've been through many different cycles.
This is, everyone's weirder than the last one. And, uh, they, they, they're all, they're never going to go away. So you have to, you know, be able to play both games, the upside and the downside game whenever you need to, but you also have to know which game to play when.
Dan Ryan: Yeah, and that's the, where the herd is going, but I like how you're approaching that from a recession in whatever facet it is, it's a constraint. And then I feel like to bring it back to radical innovation, I feel like it's really important that you and others who are Look, approaching our industry and world without constraint, kind of create, those are like going back to the arrow apple metaphor.
Those are like the, the unconstrained ideas are like the new, the arrows and the new quivers, or in the quiver that when the constraint happens, it's. Those entrepreneurs or visionaries or people who are looking at things differently, they're able to pull from those radical ideas to help kind of, I don't know, find, target that apple, if you will.
I just went out on a crazy limb there, but I, I feel like there's something in both of those that I want to, you know, Journal and write about and get much more clear on because if I really look at your path And kind of like the path i'm on, you know behind you That's that's what gets me up every day and gets me excited.
It's like how do we bridge these? And keep, keep the, the ideas and the conversations
John Hardy: You know, it's, it's more meaningful if you can reach out to other people and get new ideas and expand your thinking beyond what you would normally do in your day to day business. That, that's what, you know, makes things interesting. Just doing the same thing over and over again. You know, I don't find that interesting.
Dan Ryan: So I want you to, uh, magically appear in front of yourself in 1991 or two and a half, whenever it was, when you were, your younger self was in Houston. I got the place on
John Hardy: That's Pittsburgh.
Dan Ryan: Oh, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh. Sorry. Uh, what advice, and, and you were, you went out to start the Hardy group. What advice does the John I'm speaking to now have for the, uh, your younger self?
John Hardy: Uh, well, be prepared. And I mean that in a broad sense. Be prepared professionally with whatever you're trying to do. You have, you have to have the experience. I was fortunate. I had 13 years in architecture and eight years in development. I was very well prepared. I had lots of contacts. I mean, I wasn't an amateur.
I'd done a lot of the things I was going to try to do. And then, um, so that's one thing, be prepared. And the other thing is, you know, if you really want to do it, try it, don't be afraid, I mean, you may be afraid and you nothing wrong with being afraid because it's risky, but if, if you, I think half the battle of doing anything is just wanting to do it, because if you don't want to do it, you're not going to go through the aggravation and the heartbreak and the agony and the stress of actually trying to do it.
But if you really want to do it, you'll get through all that stuff eventually. And I just, I just met with some people that we may be investing with. They may be investing with us and they, they're. Really experienced in a way, but they're in, they're in real estate now. They haven't really done what they've done before.
They're doing historic preservation and I've been through that before. And they're at, they're at the point where they're just starting to get rewarded for what they did. But they've been through like an eight year slog of doing really difficult things. That I, you know, it's one of those things you, you think you have a good idea.
You start it, it's really hard, somewhere in the middle of you're thinking, why did I think this was a good idea? This is, this is really hard. I don't think I'm ever going to make it to the other end. Then all of a sudden you get to the end and you get people saying, Hey, great. It's great what you did. We really like it.
You get some positive reinforcement. You know, that, that's the process you have to go through. You start with a good idea. Then you have to go through the slog of actually trying to do it. And there's a lot of self doubt as you go through that. But then if you stay with it, you eventually get to a point like, Hey, it actually worked.
Dan Ryan: Totally. Like for you, or you could be like me and flame out super hard. But then learn from that and just know that there's always the next step. There's always something there. But I think the hardest thing is really just wanting to take that first step.
John Hardy: You can't quanti there's no way to quantify it enough. It's impossible. I mean, just too many variables. You don't know what's going to happen one day to the next. The world can change radically in 24 hours. Could it help you or hurt you? All those things happen. They're going to happen, even if you're successful.
They're going to happen regularly and you have to be able to contend with that. I think the most important word for anybody, if I was going to give them one thing that they took away, you have to have the ability to adapt.
Dan Ryan: Totally.
John Hardy: is the most important word in life or business there is. Cause if you can't adapt, you're in trouble.
Dan Ryan: Well, that's one of my core values, adapt and improve. So I totally agree in that a hundred percent resonates. With me and my values. Um, John, this has been so awesome and I can't wait to like, learn more as we develop and just kind of October radical innovation becomes a reality. And I'm so excited to be a part of the team as I integrate into the team and trying to help, you know, It's going to be a success.
So hopefully add to the, the already, um, they already had success, um, but just to be a part of that journey and to help it grow and to help it impact and inspire. Um, this has been a wonderful conversation. If people wanted to learn more about you, your platforms or radical innovation, what's a good way for them to
John Hardy: Uh, the Hardy group is, um, jhgi. com, Radical is radicalinnovation. io. And that that's give you everything you need.
Dan Ryan: Wonderful. And, uh, again, as you know, As an inspiration to me along my journey, I just want to say thank you for being on and putting yourself out there and helping to impact others. I appreciate it so much, John.
John Hardy: No problem, man. Thanks for doing Radical. I'm sure you do great and be a big help. And. I hope this helps somebody. I'm glad it helped you. You know, I enjoy doing anything to help somebody else if I can.
Dan Ryan: Thank you. And I would also, in that vein, really like to thank my listeners, our listeners, because without you, who tune in every week, I wouldn't be here talking to you. Amazing people like John and all and and really be able to kind of pay his learnings forward. I also would encourage you. I just started a newsletter that John mentioned earlier.
Um, I will put it in the show links, but please sign up because I did. There's so much good learning that comes from this that I just don't want it to get lost. And I want to continue. To kind of surf off the wave that John and others have created to continue to inspire and impact everyone else and shorten their journeys, uh, within our industry and beyond.
So thank you everyone. I appreciate you and we'll catch you next
John Hardy: Thanks, Dan.